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Hi,

As the language in the article regarding re-reviews and the corresponding form wasn't 100% clear to me, but seemed to suggest that only requests regarding errors that were marked completely unjustified are processed further, I reached out to the quality team after support wasn't sure either. (I haven't sent the re-review request in question yet as I'd like to have a full grasp of the criteria first.)

Feedback was that requests regarding error severity will indeed not be processed as long as an error is an error.

While I understand that disputes regarding error severity might be difficult to settle at times, I'd like to point out that a higher error severity of a mistake can be far more damaging to the quality score of a translator than e.g. an additional low severity error, and that going by that response, there seems to be no protection for translators against a misclassified error.
Additionally, Gengo emphasizes the importance of its error type classifications (e.g. regarding re-reviews) and seems to take pride in their objective criteria, a clear documentation and a transparent process.

For example, the hurdle for classification as a critical error seems to be quite steep: 

Critical: A significant error that changes the meaning of the original text and would require a retranslation to be usable by the customer. Examples include misrepresenting objective facts from the source, mistranslating vital information like a name or location, or omitting entire sections of the source text.

While the examples aren't exhaustive, I'd argue that if an error can be reasonably or even conclusively shown to not change the meaning of the original text and to not require a retranslation to be usable (as well as not matching any of the examples), it should not be marked as a critical error, and if that was done anyways, that would constitute a case which should be accepted for re-review.

So I'd like to ask Gengo to rethink its approach in that regard.

So much for the general part. 

Now for my specific case, which was a compliance error. I might be in the wrong, here, as I'm obviously biased, but even if that turns out to be the case, I'd still like to uphold my request mentioned above.

If compliance errors are categorized as critical automatically, independent of their impact on the translation, I'd accept that. However, I didn't find any language regarding that in the article describing the error classifications (my apologies if I've missed anything) and I'd assume that any such omission should be interpreted in favor of the translator as the opposite wouldn't exactly be a transparent and fair process.

Even more specifically, it was a character limit that I went over. Not by much, but still. Clearly an embarrassing and completely unnecessary mistake on my part and there was also a better option available that the reviewer suggested. So I have absolutely no problem with that and have been busy kicking myself.
What I'd contest, though, is that this was a critical error.

Now I recognize that the reviewer might lack the information to assess the actual impact of such an error. There were screenshots, but I'm not sure if those are available to the reviewer, plus there is other information that I can supply that would not have been available to them readily. Seeing that limitation, an argument could be made that an error potentially being able to make a translation unusable is enough to treat it as if it actually did.

From my point of view, however, it's clear that this error had very little impact on the quality or usability of the translation. For example, as visible on the screenshots, there is no actual, critical space limitation. The limit seems to be a purely aesthetical choice, which I obviously shouldn't go against, but which wasn't impacted in a significant way, either (i.e. people would be hard pressed to even notice).

Additionally, when there was a problem with a character limit in the past, where the same customer forgot to mention a character limit in advance, they returned the collection in question for revision, which didn't happen here and would also suggest that there wasn't an actual problem. I have the collection ID at hand.

21 comments

  • 2
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    marcodnd

    Feedback was that requests regarding error severity will indeed not be processed as long as an error is an error.

    Wait, can you elaborate on that? Was it support or quality who said that? And is this in regards to normal re-reviews or to the additional request that you sent directly to quality? 

    To be clear, the re-review support page says:

    After you receive the re-review results, if you have solid proof that a review mistake has not been corrected, please email quality@gengo.com directly with the following information within a week

    Is this the point where "error severity will not be processed"?

  • 2
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    Chris

    Hi Marco,

    This is in regards to the initial, normal re-review request and the answer should be from the quality team, but was relayed to me by support. I had contacted support again after I got a message that my email to quality@gengo.com could not be delivered (which it seems to be despite the message). I assume support then reached out to the quality team and directly relayed the message while they were at it.

  • 3
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    Nataša

    Feedback was that requests regarding error severity will indeed not be processed as long as an error is an error.

    I'm not sure if anything has changed recently, but last year I submitted a re-review request regarding an error that earned me a quality score of 5.34. The reviewer left a comment saying that my choice of the word completely changed the meaning of the sentence, but I argued this wasn't the case and cited relevant sources to support my claim. It was concluded that I had chosen a less adequate / less frequent word (not an entirely incorrect one), so the error severity was subsequently lowered and my quality score for this particular task raised to 8.6. I don't know if this is how it's still done, though.

  • 2
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    Chris

    Thanks, Nataša!

    Perhaps things have changed or they have the option to lower the severity instead of agreeing fully with claims of an accurate translation. If anything, your case is a perfect example of how much impact a change of error severity can have, though.

    Edited by Chris
  • 2
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    marcodnd

    Thanks Chris. I hope there simply was a miscommunication somewhere along the line and this isn't actually the case. Hopefully someone from gengo will jump in here to clarify.

  • 8
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    AlexF

    Hello Chris and fellow translators,

    I guess I can also share my experience with a critical "compliance error" which was picked up 4 months ago and that has still not been resolved (and which resulted in a 6.6 score).

    At the time, this is what I submitted in my re-review request:

    Source 1: Character limit instructions

    Target 1: Character limit instructions

    Comment 1: The customer requested the translation be no longer than 2000 characters. However, his source text was over 2000 characters (2220). I therefore wrote a comment to ask him to specify which part of the translation was to be translated under 2000 characters, as I expect this character limit to apply to both languages.

    What's more, in the workbench format, this text was broken down into 55 windows, meaning 55 copy/paste into another software to count the characters.

    I therefore wrote in my comment to the customer : "Please tell me if my translation fits under the character limit. The source text seems to be over 2000 characters so I'm not sure what I am supposed to count. The job has also been cut up into over 40 segments on the workbench so it is difficult to count each individually."

    I was expecting an answer (under revisions) to be able to comply to the unclear instructions but they never answered.

    I feel that this can hardly be penalized by a Critical error in following instructions.

    My re-review request was refused on the following grounds:

    We were unable to process your request for re-review as there was indeed a compliance error in the translation. We recommend reaching out to the Support Team next time you can't get an answer from a customer, because not all the customers read the comments.

    I appealed to the Quality Team with the following answer:

    Hello
    Thank you for your reply.

    Please let me disagree that when instructions are unclear (because the source text was above 2000 characters to start with), and that the translator has notified the customer about this issue, then the LS should take this into account when reviewing the translation (and therefore should not mark this as a compliance error as the instructions were unclear on which part of the source text was supposed to be counted), especially if the customer has neither answered, nor requested revisions, nor rejected the translation.

    The customer may not read the comments, but the LS is expected to according to what I have read on the forums.

    Thank you for considering again my re-review request and discussing this internally with Support and Quality Control.

    Since then no answer...

    The interesting part is that not very long after that experience, I encountered the same kind of unclear instructions about character counts. I contacted the customer (no answer) and Gengo support (as instructed) and ended up declining the job before it expired while waiting for an answer from Support (I basically declined the finished 4-page job to avoid the risk of a "critical" error).

    Then I get an answer from Support

    Thanks for your response.

    I apologize I couldn't respond right away. If in a current ticket you're replying to there's no response within an hour of sending your message, you can try creating a new ticket so that Support would be better notified. Moving forward, you can use your best judgement and proceed with the translation instead of declining it. If ever it gets reviewed and you receive a low score, you can request for a re-review and the score would possibly get fixed.

    I apologize again for the inconvenience. Let me know if you need anything else.

     

    So what exactly is expected of us ? 

    AlexF

     

    Edited by AlexF
  • 1
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    Katrina Paterson

    Hi Chris and all,

    Thanks for starting this discussion. I’ve asked for clarification about this too, and the Quality team have told me that only the existence of an error can be disputed, not its severity. This is outlined in this support article here (‘What is a re-review request and how do I submit one?’), which tells us that it is only possible to raise a re-review request in the event that:

    • You followed the customer's instructions but this was marked as an error
    • You believe your error/s should not have been marked according to Gengo's Error Type classification

    In the same article, the statement “I believe this should be downgraded to suggestion/lower severity only” is marked with a cross, meaning that it is not grounds for raising a re-review request.

    I hope that helps to clarify Gengo’s position.

    We’re very grateful to all of you for raising this question and sharing your feedback, which we will always make a note of. If you have concerns about particular cases, please contact me at katrina.paterson@lionbridge.com and I will make sure they are looked into.

  • 11
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    Chris

    Hi Alex,

    Thanks for sharing your experience.

    I agree that there seem to be mixed messages, here.
    We've been told repeatedly not to wait for an answer of the customer and use our best judgment. This advice isn't worth much if our judgement is then scrutinized harshly. Obviously, a judgment can be plain wrong, but any reasonable decision should be accepted, even if e.g. the reviewer happens to disagree with it. 
    Ultimately, the onus to give clear instruction and answer questions is on the customer, just like it's on us to follow those instructions if possible and reasonable, and if we'd reach out to support each time a customer doesn't answer, that would add quite a lot of work for them and us, not to mention that even then, an answer isn't guaranteed.
    Forgive me the pun: Based on experience, we can't expect the customer to answer, but we can expect the customer to answer (unless indicated otherwise).

    I'd say your decision was reasonable. If you opted to do the translation, you could either remove information based on your own judgement or overshoot the character limit. Both should be accepted in my opinion, as long as you tell the customer (and the reviewer) what you are doing so they can react accordingly.
    The fact that the original text was over the character limit could also be seen as a hint that the text doesn't actually come from a context where strict character limits exist.
    Lastly, character limits usually make the translation harder to begin with (and should come at additional cost to the customer, in my opinion) but expecting a longer text to be condensed in translation without sacrificing information is not a reasonable expectation for most languages. That's not to say it's always impossible, but the time and effort needed doesn't seem justified at normal translation rates.

    Now, you also could have and maybe should have rejected the translation (but again, I personally think your decision was absolutely within reason), but there is no guarantee the customer would be happy with that either. Additionally, there was also the slight possibility of the character count working out by chance, which would only become apparent after doing the translation, especially with the shortcomings of the workbench.
    Lastly, you'd normally expect the original text to stick to the character limit, and with the workbench, you might only realize it doesn't towards the end of your translation, if at all.

     

     

    Hi Katrina,

    Thanks for confirming Gengo's position regarding this. Obviously, I'm not exactly thrilled about that for some of the reasons mentioned above (e.g. the huge impact a wrongly assigned error severity can have).

    Additionally, I still find the wording of the support article a bit ambiguous:

    You believe your error/s should not have been marked according to Gengo's Error Type classification

    While this can be read as "not marked at all" it doesn't really make sense to me to exclude errors marked wrongly according to Gengo's error type classifications. 

    In the same article, we can read the following (emphasis not by me):

    Gengo uses the concept of “low,” “medium” and “critical” to divide errors based on their severity. This is the most important part of error classification and it is based on how much an error affects the overall translation

    Severity is clearly described as part of the error classification. Not only that, but as its most important part. 
    Again, it doesn't make sense to me to have absolutely no recourse against a wrong application of this important classification criterion.

    In the same article, the statement “I believe this should be downgraded to suggestion/lower severity only” is marked with a cross, meaning that it is not grounds for raising a re-review request.

    While a matching positive example is missing, this could simply be read as another example of not backing up a claim with a reason.

     

    The very fact that we can't request a lowering of the severity, but reviewers then can decide to lower it (indicating that in their opinion a request for lowering the severity would have been the way to go in the first place) shows that things are a bit skewed, here. Again, I can understand that giving the option to request a change of severity might make things more difficult for Gengo, but this seems to be a decision that is completely and one-sidedly to the detriment of translators.

    Edited by Chris
  • 5
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    hiroki

    I'd like to chime in with my own experience.

    Recently, one of my jobs (an email to a company's support team) was reviewed and my translation of the opening "Dear ..." line was marked as a critical error because I had used the term "officer" (as in "customer service officer"). The LS took issue with this as they felt that it was an exaggerated form of address for a service representative, even though it seemed clear to me from the context that "officer" in this case refers to someone in charge of a case/complaint/dispute and not a reference to their rank in the company. 

    I appealed the error citing various supporting sources and although the LS was adamant that this is an error, they changed its classification from critical to medium, and my review score went from 6.6 to 8.6. I found it baffling that something as innocuous as this (which had absolutely no impact on the rest of the otherwise error-free email) could be construed as a medium-level error, but I appreciate that the LS was at least willing to take my feedback into account, so I left it at that.

    What's funny to me is that I had used the exact same translation in a previous job that was reviewed by a different LS, who not only did not mark it as an error but even left a remark saying my translation was excellent. Disregarding the issues with consistency and how Gengo's reviews feel very much like the luck of the draw, I absolutely agree with Chris that error severity has the greatest impact on the translator's score and should be strictly applied in accordance with Gengo's description of the various error classifications (and if the same wording can be deemed to be anything along the spectrum from "not an error" to "critical error" depending on which LS is looking at it, something's obviously not quite right). Otherwise, why even bother having classifications in the first place?

    Edited by hiroki
  • 7
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    marcodnd

    Hello Katrina, 

    You wrote: 

    In the same article, the statement “I believe this should be downgraded to suggestion/lower severity only” is marked with a cross, meaning that it is not grounds for raising a re-review request.

    OK, but let's look at the entire context. That quote you refer to is marked with a red cross along with other examples, like "The LS pointed out a mistake but didn’t provide corrections.” and “My translation is not unnatural, I’ve heard a lot of native speakers say it.”. Instead, the example marked with a green check (meaning "this is the correct way of doing it") is: 

    “According to (reputable source), in this case both forms of the verb, plural and singular, are correct. Here is what it says about it: "xxxxxxx" For further details, you can visit https://www.xxxxxxxxxxx.com.”

    When you compare the correct example with the wrong examples, it seems to me that the point Antonio (the author of the article) is trying to get across is that the translator's request should be properly articulated, providing sources and/or sound arguments. My impression is that the red mark on the “I believe this should be downgraded to suggestion/lower severity only”  example is not there because of a specific policy that prohibits downgrading an error, but simply because, in that example, the translator is not providing any particular argument or sources, they're just casually asking to downgrade an error for no particular reason. 

    Also, other translators in this discussion are saying that they did get an error downgraded on previous occasions, and I can say that I've often requested an error downgrade and my re-review request still went through the approval process.

    So, before we even continue to discuss the merit of this policy of not allowing error downgrading, can you absolutely make sure and double check that this is in fact the case? I still want to believe that there's been some type of miscommunication here. That, or this policy is only a recent change that hasn't been properly communicated. 

    Thanks!

    Edited by marcodnd
  • 1
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    Katrina Paterson

    Hi,

    Thanks to everyone who has responded so far to this thread. I will address this to everyone, but if I skip over anyone’s individual concerns, please remind me.

    In reference to the wording of the Support article – thanks for the suggestions. Whenever we are writing translator-facing content, we always try to get a few team members to read over everything to check for possible ambiguities, but it’s always good to get more feedback on areas that could be clarified so thanks to those of you who brought this up (and if you have suggestions for improvements, please feel free to throw them in).

    In relation to marcodnd’s request for clarification (‘before we even continue to discuss the merit of this policy of not allowing error downgrading, can you absolutely make sure and double check that this is in fact the case’) – I did go back to the Quality team and ask them for extra confirmation and what they told me was this: It has never been possible to raise a re-review request based on the argument that the severity level of an error should be downgraded; it is only possible to dispute that there actually is an error to begin with. In other words, it is possible to dispute the existence of an error, but not to dispute its level of severity.

    However, the Quality team also told me that it may happen that in the course of a re-review that has been requested based on the argument that an error should not have been marked, the severity level of the error is downgraded rather than the error being completely removed, and this, as they told me, is the only way that the severity level of an error could be downgraded as the result of a re-review request.

    I hope that this helps to clarify the Quality team’s position. I would not like to go into discussing individual cases here on the forum, but if any of you have uncertainties about a review that you’ve received, please do contact me at the usual address (katrina.paterson@lionbridge.com) and I will ask for it to be looked into further.

    As for the bigger questions about the strengths and weaknesses of this system – I do very much appreciate everything that everyone has written, and I will continue to feed it back. I’d also strongly advise all of you to continue to leave your thoughts here on the forum, and in any surveys that you might get sent from us, since this does help us to get a better picture of how our systems work for translators. While we can’t always implement everything – and while it is very difficult to implement processes that will keep everybody happy at the same time while still being practical, scalable, etc. – we do try to review our processes every so often, and we consider translator feedback as part of such reviews. So, I encourage you to keep your thoughts coming, and I’m looking forward to receiving more responses on this topic.

    Again, I apologise if I’ve missed anyone’s concerns out – and if I have, let me know and I’ll get onto them. Thanks again to everyone who’s contributed.

  • 8
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    marcodnd

    Thank you Katrina,

    so, in reference to this:

    It has never been possible to raise a re-review request based on the argument that the severity level of an error should be downgraded; it is only possible to dispute that there actually is an error to begin with. In other words, it is possible to dispute the existence of an error, but not to dispute its level of severity.

    my obvious follow-up question is: why?

    On the face of it, this is an unfair policy. A Language Specialist's mistake is a mistake, whether it concerns error type, error severity or error 'existence'. A misgraded error affects our score just as much as a mismarked error, and both should be subject to appeal.

    More worryingly, if a Language Specialist is non-compliant in applying the official guidelines on error severity and the translator will never be able to point it out, how will the LS ever receive any feedback on improving their compliance? 

    So, could you help us understand the rationale behind this system? So far we focused on its weaknesses, so could you point at some of its strengths, maybe?

    I understand when you say that no system will keep everybody happy, but can we set the bar at making at least somebody happy? :)

     

     

     

  • 6
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    KO

    I would like to strongly back the points that Chris, aardhiroki, marcodnd, and others have raised so far. I would also appreciate it if Katrina and the Quality Control Team could clarify the following two points:

     

    (1)

    If the LS's judgments of the severity of an error are not a part of the objective scoring process, why keep this system in place at all? The only reason I can think of for Gengo not allowing translators to contest the severity of an error is that judgments of severity are somehow too subjective to be contested on objective grounds. But if that is the case, then this sort of arbitrary judgment should not be affecting our overall scores. On the other hand, if Gengo's position is that the severity of an error can be assessed according to objective criteria, then it should be something that it is possible for translators to contest on an objective basis. 

     

    (2)

    Why is it that a translator is not allowed to even try to change the severity of an error, but an LS can respond to a mistake in the review (a mistake which they made in the first place) by lowering the severity of the error, rather than retracting it entirely? Why the inequality here?

    Even if we grant for the sake of argument that there are sound reasons for not allowing translators to try to change the severity of an error, it would seem that the very same argument would count in favor of not allowing the LS's the option, so that if an LS has made a mistake in classifying an error, the only option they would have is to retract it entirely, rather than to downgrade it. Am I missing something here?

    Edited by KO
  • 3
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    Katrina Paterson

    Hi everyone,

    marcodnd – thanks for following up, and KO – thanks for joining the discussion.

    So, before I say anything else, I’d like to make clear that I am not a part of the Quality team, and therefore I can’t speak as somebody who designs and implements the processes that they use. I can only try to clarify the Quality team's position in the best way that I can based on the information that they tell me, which I will try to do here.

    Having gone back to seek further clarification again, what they told me was that it is essentially company policy that translators cannot dispute the severity level of an error. In reference to concerns about LS accountability (in the sense that translators do not have the power to contest the severity level that an LS chooses), they told me that LS performance is continually monitored, and that this monitoring considers factors like error type and severity level distribution, meaning that if an LS is marking critical-level errors at an uncommonly high rate than this will be spotted and investigated. The performance monitoring also compares how different LSs in the same language pair identify errors, with the aim of ensuring consistency and, again, monitoring performance. This is mentioned in a support article which you can read here, if you're interested.

    I’m aware that a lot of you had additional questions about why the scoring system works this way. I am still seeing where there is any further information that I can provide in this sense, in which case I will let you know next week. For now, if you’d like to keep commenting, feel free to continue over the weekend and I’ll pick up where we left off on Monday.

  • 3
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    KO

    Katrina, with all due respect, I feel your point about LSs being monitored is a little besides the issue. Of course we trust that Gengo monitors the LSs to make sure that they are performing consistently on average; that is something we translators take as a given. What is at issue right now is the right of translators to defend their standing in those individual cases where the LS has made a mistake in their scoring despite the system working as it should, either because of carelessness or because their preconceptions are coloring the way they see things. Unless the system can ensure that LSs never make mistakes in how they rate the severity of an error (which we can all agree is not the case), the latter concern still stands.

    Edited by KO
  • 4
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    Katrina Paterson

    Hi KO, thanks for your response. I completely understand your concern when you say that there is a difference between the LS team being monitored collectively, and translators being able to question LS judgements on error severity in specific individual cases. Unfortunately, I have asked the Quality team for clarification about this topic (error severity) on several occasions since Chris started the thread, and the most that I have been told to pass on to our translator community, other than my above comment about LS monitoring, is that the system exists the way that it does because of company policy, and our emphasis should be on explaining how the rules are implemented, rather than the reasoning behind them.

    Since I myself am not a part of the Quality team, this effectively means that what I have told all of you so far in this discussion is genuinely everything that I know, and if I were to try to provide additional feedback here then this would be speculation, because it would come from me rather than the company. For now, I’ve made a list of all of the concerns that have been raised throughout the length of this thread and passed these on to the wider team. If there’s any additional information that I can pass on after that, then I will let you all know.

    Thanks to everyone who has contributed, and if there’s anything else that you would like me to add to the list, please let me know here or by email and I’ll make sure to add that too.

  • 8
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    malgorzata.gorbacz

    Hi everyone,

    I'm Gosia Gorbacz, a new Head of Quality and Community at Gengo/Lionbridge. Katrina has brought this post up to my attention and I'd like to shed some more light on this topic.

    First of all, thank you so much for your honest feedback. I understand how confusing the system might be and how annoying this is if you feel that you have been incorrectly graded for the work done.

    We've been hearing your feedback shared here and through the satisfaction surveys and we're looking into improving the re-review process. The basic logic that we'd like to follow moving forward is: "if you have enough justification and reliable sources to prove your point, the request should be processed" and this should include incorrect use of severity levels (by incorrect, I mean not in accordance with the error typology guidelines). We will also redesign the support article to remove the ambiguity, as I can see from your comments that it'd benefit from a bit of a clean-up. :)

    I hope to have some actual improvements to show you very soon, so please stay tuned! In the meantime, if you have any further comments about the re-review process or anything else on the quality or community fronts, please feel free to reach out to me directly at malgorzata.gorbacz@lionbridge.com and I'll be happy to respond.

     

  • 2
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    Chris

    Thanks a lot, Gosia, that's excellent news! :)

    Any chance that we can request reviews retroactively once the new process is in place? E.g. I would have to have submitted my request a couple of days ago to make the deadline of 4 weeks, but didn't, as it would have been rejected. "Moving forward" I'd usually understand as not retroactive.

    If possible, could you also comment on how the severity of compliance errors should be judged? Are they automatically critical or do they have the same severity levels in place? E.g. is exceeding a character limit automatically a critical mistake (because it could potentially cause problems) or does the individual situation matter? For example, would it matter if we can reasonably show that the translation hasn't been rendered unusable or that the instruction was problematic to begin with (which might become apparent only after doing a big part of the translation) and that the customer didn't react in any way, either by commenting, requesting a revision or rejecting the translation despite the issue being pointed out to them?

    Edited by Chris
  • 4
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    malgorzata.gorbacz

    Hi Chris, happy to see your positive comment. :)

    Regarding your compliance question - compliance error category should follow the same rule as any other error type and have the same severity levels in place. A compliance error should be considered critical if it changes the meaning of the original text and would require a retranslation to be usable by the customer. Back to your example - I'd say that severity level should depend on whether this too long translation would make the content unusable or not. The general logic would be that "yes, the content would be unusable, because it'd be cut down in the middle". However, if there's an instruction from a customer, a screenshot or anything that would prove otherwise, I wouldn't consider it a critical error. If the later is the case here, please send an email to quality@gengo.com with all relevant information and I'll follow up with the team to make sure your case is validated internally.

    As a general comment, unfortunately, we wouldn't be able to arbitrate back and re-assess issues from the past. This change would be applicable to all new requests starting from the date the change is announced.

  • 2
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    Chris

    So as per the current newsletter, it seems like the discussed changes have already been implemented. 

    Thanks again to everyone involved! Thanks for listening, thanks for the willingness to reconsider and thanks for making the changes so quickly. It's much appreciated.

  • 3
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    malgorzata.gorbacz

    Hi Chris! Yes, the new process is now live. :)

    Thank you everyone for your feedback and I hope you will find the new process more useful, fair and approachable.

    Many thanks,

    Gosia

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